Yo.

I am seeing Five Iron Frenzy tomorrow, in Lancaster, PA.

Isn’t that sweet?

Fave band.

We have some incorrect beliefs about God, but we are supposed to be teachable and humble -> not required to have penetrating insight as a prerequisite nor are we left to figure things out by ourselves.

But I’d be hesitant to use ‘heretic’ in the sense that someone has erroneous ideas about God. There’s a world of difference between someone who has an incorrect belief about God, and someone who insists that his incorrect belief is right contra Scripture (or contra what is inferred from Scripture by “good and necessary consequence”, e.g. often the traditional interpretation, particularly in the Reformed or Calvinist strand).

Someone who likens God to three states of matter, e.g. ice-water-vapor (even though that analogy is more modalist than triune), is quite different from someone who, when being corrected as to how that formulation is wrong, keeps arguing the point and subverting the authority above him.

It is the latter, and not the former, who is a heretic. Or maybe what I’ve said just now is still going too far: perhaps he’s only a heretic if he holds the position despite church discipline.

I am only saying this because I have come to understand heresy as that which is associated with hellfire. The person who is teachable or accepts church discipline was not a heretic until the point he learned the right formula. We never know God well enough or full enough to exhaust who God is with a formula or a description or analogy or theological model.

Thus, a heretic is someone who lives in unrepentant doctrinal sin, whereas someone who makes an error unknowingly is just erroneous or ignorant of sound teaching. The former should’ve known better and continues anyway; the latter is willing to know better and hence accepts rebuke.

This guards us from saying that someone who becomes a new Christian is not really a Christian until he gets his doctrine straight, or from this implied notion that you can be a heretic and never realize it.

I don’t think the passage would mean the “believing Gentile community”. I really think that’s poor exegesis.

Similar to what you were saying, John Piper tries to defend it through cross referencing John 11:51-52 (link), saying that the same language is used:
John 11:51-52,
“He prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad.”
1 John 2:2,
“He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.”

I am not sure this is the right answer. I love Piper, and I enjoy his sermons, but this is not his strongest case or something I think he should be proud of. It feels like exegymnastics. Meanwhile, something I am not convinced of is that the verse is speaking as strictly as is claimed or, rather, that it means what Unlimited Atonement (as commonly presented) claims. Let me put it another way: I think all Scripture should be given weight, but this verse seems like you’d want several other passages to have similar claims. I think Limited Atonement can suffer this same criticism, but significantly less so.

Here’s my take of the verse, in layman’s terms
“He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.”

His saving and defending and cleansing work isn’t for us (those who currently believe) only, since anyone can claim Him and be saved. It isn’t our immediate community. It isn’t just the first generation, or those who saw Christ. It isn’t just the Jews. It is for everyone. Given context, the propitiation is pointing to Christ’s cleansing, defending those who confess their sins, etc. This is not true of the whole world (since some are damned), but anyone in the world can call on Christ and be saved. It all hinges on Christ being our Advocate, and He is only an advocate for those who confess their sins and are cleansed, but at the same time He can be the advocate for all. He is our advocate because He is our propitiation. So, He is for us, but not us only but for everyone.

John 1:7-2:2
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.
2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world. 

[edit]
I think a lot of the debate comes down to already, but not yet tension; and understanding of God’s sovereignty whether God plans some things, no things, all things, or whether His plans can fail (they can’t, but some think they can) — Did God’s plan intend that all be saved? These topics’ answers are often assumed, and it is frustrating to discuss since they are so loaded.

Dear younger Jonathan Vajda,

I know you have some strong feelings about this, but please hear me out. When you think of a Church that’s really orderly, don’t assume their hearts aren’t in it or that they are just going through the motions thoughtlessly. I realize that you think that pre-written prayers are not as authentic or honest as those said right-off-the-cuff, and that communion shouldn’t be done every week because it will lose significance.

In reality, every congregation will have people whose hearts aren’t in it, and people who are passionate and authentic. It doesn’t ultimately rise and fall on liturgy or mustering up the kinds of thoughts you think you “ought” to feel.

If pre-written prayers are not genuine, then our worship songs need not be pre-written. Actually, if you take the time to write out a prayer, you are in the moment of time where you can meditate on the right things to pray for, to stop and be led by the Spirit in the 15 minutes, hour, or day that you are carefully crafting the right prayer to offer to God before the congregation. Sometimes you ask for things you know you shouldn’t ask; taking the time to think it through is a safeguard against this selfishness. Sometimes you stumble over words not knowing what you’re saying; this allows you to have this time to stumble at your desk, so that when you’re in front of everyone they are led most effectively, clearly and Biblically. Finally, you can make sure that the words coming out of your mouth are beautiful and honoring to God. Eloquence is not just for man: God made man’s mouth for His own glory.

If the frequency of communion implies a drop in significance, then preaching should be every couple weeks or once-a-month. Or skip worship music every once in a while. In early Christian history, the service centered on communion rather than worship music or the preaching; they had a higher view of the sacraments and they wanted to partake. In fact, communion is the gospel, presented a different way. You are proclaiming what Christ accomplished on the cross –breaking his body, spilling his blood– for the making of a new covenant, in which we have union with Christ and community with one another. The fact that it is the gospel means we should partake frequently. If you could summarize a worship service, it is that we are glorying in our unity with Christ and fellowship together, being spiritually fed and worshiping God as he told us to; thus, the communion table is a microcosm of the entire service, a small part that makes the whole in view.

Finally, younger Jon, the Church is broken and, until Christ returns, always will be. Please be patient, as no Church seems to “get it right.” They’re just like you, and need grace and progressive sanctification. Some things will change for the better, and never as fast as you’d like. Embrace high hopes for her, but expect much disappointment along the way. Much disappointment. But never forsake her or dishonor her, because she is your mother.

I came out of a sketchy Aldi store off the edge of North Philly, and a white woman, rather heavy with a few bags, approaches me and says, “Hey, can you do me a really huge favor? I’ll pay you money for it! I need a ride to The Towers!” (an apartment complex about a half-mile north of here) My heart is racing, because I’m honestly half-expecting her to pull out pepper spray or a gun as soon as I would pull out the keys for the ignition. She keeps looking at her purse. I say, “I should be able to help with that, sure.” ”Thank you, thank you, thank you!!” she says, as if she were just given a hundred dollars. Stalling a little bit to calm my nerves, I also move some stuff in my car so she can sit down, then I pop the trunk to put my groceries in. “It’s just the black guys. I don’t discriminate, but black guys are just rude and make comments.”

I sit down, watching as she keeps looking at her purse, now shuffling things around in it. I have my car door still open as I start the engine. She thanks me and asks my name.

I ask about directions for clarification, ignore her directions and make a better judgment. She exclaims, “You’re right! You’re so smart! Thank you so much! This is such a big help!”

She then tells me she has a twenty, and asks whether I can break it. I say I can’t, and then console that it is okay, since it isn’t far out of the way. As we go, she makes some off-handed, random comment on wine, and how Jesus drank wine. I agree and confirm that it isn’t wrong. Seriously, it was out of nowhere. (Or so it appeared on the surface.) I acknowledge that I came from a Baptist background, and while several people around me thought alcohol was wrong, Jesus didn’t live that way. She admits she was a Catholic, so they had wine in ceremonies, and she doesn’t think it is wrong. “But because of the crazy stuff going on there, I just have my own religion now, and I live by that. I love God and God loves me. Heh-heh.”

At this point I made the remark, “But if it is just your own, then why would anyone want to be so lonely? And if it isn’t true, then why believe it?” She sits there, pauses a moment, and says, “what do you mean?” I answer, “What I mean is, your religion is just what you want it to be, and that neither invites someone in, nor does it glorify any noble thing but yourself. It doesn’t heal, and it doesn’t make someone new. It doesn’t change people, it is just an inspirational thought you like.”

Then she smiles and asks, “So do you have a wife or any kids?” I deny both, saying, “Well, I have a girlfriend, but no kids.” ….”Congratulations! I’m so happy for you! I have a couple kids, and my husband died back in 2003. Ya know, he was just hanging in crime areas and he got killed. Just being around the wrong guys. Drugs, ya know.”

Stunned, I say, “I… I am sorry.”

“Well, it was so long ago so I’m alright. Their grandparents take care of them, and I get to see them on weekends.”

“That’s not easy, that must be hard.”

“I work a lot, I mean, I’m still in my cleaning clothes from cleaning all day!”

“I make a left here, yes?”

“You’re smart! See, you know! Thank you so much! Just pull in here on the left, and then you can do a circle to get back out.” … “Thank you so much, this is such a huge help. It is because of black guys, they just keep making comments as they drive by. I don’t discriminate, but they just do.”

“Hey, well, it’s no worries. Have a good one.”

“What was your name again?” She shakes my hand.

“Jon, and yours?” There is a pause in the handshake… Then she starts shaking some more. ”I didn’t catch it, what was your name?”

“Uhh, Deanne. Thank you so much, and congratulations on your wife and kids!”

“Yeah, thanks! Have a good one!” I say.

[the only thing that didn't happen was between the bold statements, a boldness that I didn't express at the time]

I see your footprints and your frequency. Why don’t you comment? Why do you visit: can you read english? are you interested in theological content? are you just a robot crawling my site?

Loans with no interest are scams or non-existent. So when someone tells you that they don’t have interest on, say, a student loan, what they don’t realize is that there actually is interest — it is just being paid for by other people. This is true in the US, Australia, and everywhere else. Banks, governments, credit unions, etc. don’t just lend money for free: they are taking on the risk that someone won’t pay them back. And a promissory note is not just an agreement that they will be paid back, but that they will also be compensated for taking on that risk. IOW, you don’t EVER get awarded an interest-free loan from the government.

1. In my humiliation, I am realizing that so much of my thoughts have been thought by dead people. Except if I can do a better job of summarizing, clarifying, illustrating, relating, or applying than they did — if for nothing else than a gap in context — I would be wasting my time to put pressure on the buttons of my keyboard. Especially when I have so much more to read.

2. When I want to write, it is often in passing, and my thoughts never get all down. E.g. “What are the preconditions for a given person to be persuaded of God’s existence, and for whom/how are those conditions met?” and “What roles do culture, societal institutions (marriage, courts, universities, etc.), and vocabulary (e.g. “creature,” “excruciating,” “Adam and Eve”, etc.) have in proclaiming, explicating, illustrating and defending Special Revelation?”

3. I’ve been busy spending my intellectual juices reading theological studies and researching for IT problems at work. Hard to have the intellectual fervor, initiative and drive (let alone time!) to sit down and write. In other words, I just don’t feel like it.

But for you, please meditate on Romans 1:16-32. What about God has been revealed, and how? There’s at least two different distinct revelations of God. What is the relationship between sin and the knowledge of God? Are people cut off from the knowledge of God? Jesus Christ said, “Eternal life is this: that they know you, the True God, and Jesus, whom He has sent.” With what is Eternal life and knowledge contrasted in Romans 1?

Nope, it’s not in the Scripture as presented, nor is the preamble in the Bible. By preamble (or what comes after it), I mean that when someone presents the sinner’s prayer, they essentially say “hey, if you say these words and mean it, then you’re saved”… That’s not right. There’s something distinctly wrong with it. It is, perhaps, the main issue I have with it. But there are other things of note.

For one, it places man at the center of it: if you do X (and Y), then you get Z! … But Y can always be questioned (did I really mean it? what if I wasn’t genuine? I understand the gospel so much more now, did I really even get it enough at the time for it to count?)

Likewise, God initiates and follows through with salvation. It isn’t ultimately all in your court. God never made the existential ultimatum so cut and dry and inorganic. It isn’t like God says, “It’s totally up to you: the ball’s in your court whether you’re saved or not.” God interacts with us and woo’s us. He changes our hearts according to his purpose. That said, our heart, soul, mind, and strength are all being brought in to God– our speech isn’t the first step in our relationship with God; it is God. He doesn’t start by giving us a vocabulary, but rather a heartbeat.

Second, historically, a person wanting to become a Christian would come to his elder/bishop/whatever and give a credible profession of faith; not just with word, but showing repentance in their life. Only then would they be encouraged to get baptized (and then partake in communion!). But they had no right to be called a Christian until they were examined — and not just by what they said.

Now, it is important to remember that whether someone is saved or not is not determined (in the sense of decision) by the elder, but by God. Instead, it was determined (in the sense of investigated) by the elder for the practicality of membership/entering into the community.

This means, that while someone may be saved after saying that prayer, it is not as if the prayer were the cause, but (perhaps more importantly for this discussion) the elder/whoever-is-presenting-it does *not* have the authority or justification to tell someone that the person is saved on that sole basis.

http://ronpaulflix.com/2012/02/ron-paul-speech-at-central-michigan-university-feb-25-2012/

But I wasn’t there!! Sigh.